Go ahead. Call me crazy. It’s likely you won’t be the only one….
I spent last evening — Valentine’s Day — with Mr. Airplane. And it was — much as I expected — perfect. Absolutely perfect.
I’d never been to his home before but he wanted to cook for me. When I arrived, he busied himself opening a bottle of my favorite wine, while I wandered through his home, admiring it. He has a truly beautiful home, full of dark woods, rich textiles, and beautiful art. Everything was tasteful and well-appointed, impressive for a divorced man who’d moved in with nearly nothing. Over our wine, he presented me with a beautiful blooming pink cyclamen and a sweet but funny Valentine. Then, after a toast, it was on to dinner: seared tuna sashimi with sticky rice, homemade spring rolls, and garnishes of avocado and strawberries, along with an Asian-inspired side salad with orange sesame dressing. And if the food hadn’t won me over, the presentation would have:
Now, I don’t know about you, but my cooking never looks like this, special occasion or not. Once again, I have managed to find a man whose culinary skills far outpace my own. But that’s okay, I’m supposed to be learning to let someone take care of me and be nice to me, right?
But I digress….
After a candlelit dinner and some nice conversation, we cleaned up the dishes together and then settled in front of the fire to watch a surprisingly endearing romantic comedy, share some more wine, and snuggle. When the movie ended, it was getting late, but he walked me to his grand piano and played for me. He is a classically-trained pianist who plays entirely by ear and improvisation. I sat in awe as his fingers moved deftly over the keys, easing from them songs of his own composition, classical favorites, and contemporary pop songs that we sung along to. With me yawning and still getting over my vicious cold, we decided to call it a night. He walked me to my car, gave me a sweet kiss, and made me promise to text him when I got home safely.
Yes, it was perfect. Absolutely perfect.
Let’s sum up, shall we? Here is a man who is smart, successful, funny, friendly, confident, accomplished, emotionally-healthy, artistic, generous, attentive, kind, affectionate, and a good father. He wants to bring me chicken soup when I’m sick, shovel my driveway when it snows, and fly me to another state for dinner sometime just because he can. He’s tall and broad-shouldered and nice looking. And he likes me. He really, really likes me.
So, sometime very soon, I need to figure out how to break up with him.
Because for all these wonderful things that he is, there is one wonderful thing he is not: right for me. Something is missing. Some intangible nuance, some chemical attraction, some soul connection is not there. It’s as if the universe created the perfect checklist of a man for me and forgot to include the heart connection. I kiss him, and I feel nothing. Nada. Zilch. He touches me and, rather than press into him, I shift ever so slightly away. When I hear from him, I am glad, but when I don’t, I don’t really notice. I admire and respect and like him. Under different circumstances, we could likely be great friends. But right now, my heart and soul and body are not interested in anything more. My brain would love to convince them otherwise, but they aren’t having it. They’ve been fooled before and have some divorce papers to show for it.
So, because he really, really likes me, I have to break up with him. He is a good man. A really good man. He deserves a woman who tingles when he touches her and gets butterflies at the sound of his voice. A woman who can’t wait to get his next text and share the rich and full life he has to offer. He doesn’t deserve to fall in love with someone who will never truly love him back. I’ve done that to men before and it was wrong. And I’ve been in his shoes and it sucks even worse.
And so I have to break up with him.
Sigh.
Go ahead. Call me crazy. It’s likely you won’t be the only one….
that precarious gait 
*sigh*
Lol. What’s good enough for one person, isn’t for another, SD. 🙂 That’s the beauty of it.
Oh, I know. It wasn’t a sigh of exasperation or rebuke, more of a reflection of the disappointment for you of all that potential unfulfilled. I’m sorry he’s not The One.
He’s out there somewhere. Once you run out of American guys, you can advertize internationally.. 🙂
It’s okay. I’m not disappointed. I met an amazing person and I got to learn about him and spend some fun times with him. I don’t see it as potential unfulfilled. I think it fulfilled all the potential that it had. 🙂
Gosh… I know the feeling. You meet someone that is perfect in every way… yet you just don’t feel it. I really, really hate that, and have even gone to the extent of trying to force myself to have a connection, but you just can’t.
I suspect that a lot of women, particularly divorced women, are going to relate to this…. I don’t know about your experience, but my refusal to settle for less seems to make some people very uncomfortable. It reminds me of my divorce — when so many people couldn’t believe that I would leave a marriage that seemed just fine — what was I, crazy? 🙂 I didn’t let it stop me then, and I’m sure as hell not letting anyone else’s idea of what I should want stop me now. I am truly happier alone than with someone who leaves me feeling empty. 🙂 And besides, he’s a good guy and deserves way more than being someone that I “settled for.”
I … uh… My jaw dropped when you said you had to break up with him. There I am, smiling on your behalf and my jaw dropped and hit the floor.
Hell woman, send him over here. 🙂 and he cooks! Oh good LORD!
Oh shit woman… ugh… If I didn’t understand what you were saying, and I do, I’d be like… NO NO !! WAIT AND SEE… I can’t though. Because I know what you’re saying. Shit … oh man! ugh…
Walks away, shaking head (not at you because I understand) it’s like kissing your brother isn’t it… fffuuuuu…
Nothing huh? Shit … Yah LOL this is stuck in my head now… hahaha! That’s just not right! I know exactly what you mean! ugh…
Yep, it’s a shame when that happens. But kissing our brother is a good description for it. I think that this is exactly what happens with the sliders vs. deciders phenomenon I’ve written about… there’s nothing exactly wrong, but there’s nothing exactly right, either. Oh well… that’s why true love is so very, very rare, right?
I don’t think true love is rare. I see here in blog world all the time. I follow a couple bloggers who have it… I refuse to believe that it’s rare. (I’m not yelling LOL 🙂 I’m saying it because I want proof it exists and I keep finding it.
uhhhmmmm… do you think “at all” that perhaps your’e not over the last fella and you have your guard up? Just asking… I know that no chemistry is no chemistry however I still have to ask.
Besides… you wrote the other day about that young lady who got back together with a guy and that was true love. So it exists… hmmmph 🙂
Oh no, you’re absolutely right — it absolutely exists! Maybe I’d be more willing to settle if I didn’t know that with such certainty! I do think it’s rare, though. I think a lot of people muddle through with “good enough” relationships and feel that emptiness but don’t know what to call it.
As for James, no, this isn’t about him, but that’s an understandable question. If it were about getting over James, I’d just hang on and ride it out with Mr. Airplane, knowing that I’d get past James eventually. And I don’t actually have my guard up right now… I feel really open and hopeful and happy right now. James hurt me, but not in a way that caused me to question my value in future relationships and not in a way that makes me think that men are all douchebags. We just didn’t work out. And that’s okay. If it were meant to be, we would have had a different ending…. When I think of him, it makes me sad because it did hurt — a lot — but I’m not pining over it. My guy is out there somewhere. I just wish he’d hurry his ass up and get here already! Geez! Lol…
LOL 🙂 Yaaaa… do you know? They say when “we” are ready s/he shows up. That’s cool with me… I can wait. I should look too though, but I can wait… it’ll come.
And I believe that, just settling won’t do for me either. I know I could have settled a few times and my mind/heart would not let me do it. I hear you honey. I hear you…
Give yourself (and him) time perhaps?
Just a suggestion…I know what you mean though, it’s tough.
😦
No, Lady E. I know when it’s there and when it’s not, and I’m not looking for someone to just keep me company. I don’t want to lead him on; he’s already much more invested in it than I am. It’s time to move on, and I really am fine with it. 🙂
Wow. I know exactly what you mean. I have been on both the receiving end and the sending end. It’s like “He/She is just not that in to you”. It’s too bad when can’t all be sensible about the whole chemistry thing, but all too often one party likes/loves the other party more. And it’s hard to be the “lessor” one. I have a male BFF who I absolutely adore and do nice things for him all the time, and does nothing in return. Does it hurt my feelings? Do I understand why? Most of the time. But I realize that if I am not there standing right in front of him, he doesn’t give me a second thought. Until he needs something that I can provide for him. Boy,…..I should really rethink this relationship, lol. Anyway, I do understand. And you WILL find the right chemistry, sometime, somewhere.
Yes, you’re right. It’s no good on either end, but he’s far too good a man to string along in the hopes that I’ll eventually feel something for him. He’s also confident enough of his value that I feel certain that, were I to give him that option, he would say absolutely no, thank you.
I’ve no doubt my guy is out there. And right now I’m dating some other woman’s dream man, so I’m going to cut him loose to go find her. 🙂
Not Crazy at all.
Ideally you would be able to be friends. Ya never know, sometimes things come out of that. But…if you are pulling away at his touch now, then changing this from a potential romantic relationship to something else or something not at all, is probably the nicest thing you can do for him (and you)
I understand too about rejecting the “perfect” package. I have had friends like that. Women who were drop-dead gorgeous, great athletes, smart, talented…all rolled into one skin. One in particular was a flirt buddy. We got along great. But for me, the thought of us actually being physical…was almost comical. I just did not feel that way (and thankfully neither did she). On “paper” we would have been great together…but it just seemed laughable!! If “that” chemistry is not there…then it is not there. Sometimes (often) if it was there in the beginning and then goes away for a bit as in a long term relationship, it will come back if it is worked on, but the beginning is really critical to establish that.
You know what’s funny, LFBA? I was just reading this weekend about the science of love — it was in the Sunday “Parade” magazine and in the book “The Female Brain” — and there is ample science to support your theory that “the beginning is really critical to establish that.” I know him well enough at this point to know the limits of our relationship — like with your friend, the thought of being naked with him seems a bit strange and… wrong. And I really like getting naked, so that’s a definite indicator! 🙂
Yes I will call you crazy. All you women bemoan and say where are all the good men out there. You had one and are going to throw him back. Yup, crazy.
John
Yes, this is fantastic advice. We should just go out with someone because they are nice. Never mind if we are attracted to them or not. Nope. So not important. Without that attraction, you have a friend. Sorry. I need more than a friend.
I beg your pardon, John, but I challenge you to find anywhere that I said or implied that there is a shortage of good men. Because I simply don’t believe that. Most of the men I have dated in my life — and certainly since my divorce — were very good men, but that is a baseline, NOT the whole list. Meeting good men is not my problem, dating good men is not my problem, finding a good man (or any man) who touches my heart is the beginning and end of the problem. If love were only a matter of finding someone “good enough,” the poets and lyricists wouldn’t spend so much time trying to describe the indescribable. If true love were so common that we could find it with anyone who is simply “good,” then I’d have fallen in love dozens of times in my dating career. There is something far more profound that is necessary for true love to take root and blossom and hold on, and if you don’t already know that, my friend, then I am very sorry for you.
HAHAHAHA! “All you women bemoan”… oh for christ’s sake, are you kidding me? I am still amused by the broad strokes you place on women, emotions, relationships and intimacy. Of course, it’s nothing a good blow job after you are married to them won’t solve. Providing they are married to you and it is, lord knows, they’re god given duty to perform said act. Course, prior to marriage… if I remember correctly, it’s not as necessary. Isn’t this what you said?
So, really … I mean it seems that if Precious here does not find herself attracted to this fella here in a sexual way… MY GOD! BLASPHEMY! What would happen, if she settled and then got married and could not perform her “duties” in the bedroom? I shudder to think of the ramifications of being with a person who does nothing for them in the chemistry department and then pretending you want to… but if you’re married, it’s your duty, so you need to pretend you like it because you know… bitter and rebellious women all over the place are foregoing blow jobs because… they’re so damned selfish. My god… Ladies! What are you thinking!
Have I summarized this for you well enough John? Precious? (say this with sarcasm please) what on earth are you thinking woman? I mean, MY GOD thoust should toss out the red carpet and bow down graciously … primarily to your knees according to John here … you know, the expert all knowing “look at all my readers and ratings” expert guru on love and relationships here… Come on John. Tell me again how bitter and rebellious I am … 🙂 OMG ! It’s lightening! It’s going to strike me dead for having my own thoughts on the matter holy shit … heeeelp meeee!! squeee!!!! hahahahaha!
Precious? My apology in advance for the ruckus. M.C.
HAHAHAHAAAAA!!! OMG LOL 🙂 Oh… thank you so much. I am laughing my hinny off… (it’s got some lighting burn on it, but I’ve got this really nice creme here and it’s healing nicely. Thank you.)
Oh Lordy, I went and checked out the Cocky Coach for myself, and almost puked on my new laptop.
“I know you say that it is gross and disgusting. Get over yourself. Millions of women
give their men blow jobs and have positive self esteem for giving their man such
intense pleasure. It only takes a second to quickly swallow his come. If you choose
to do this, it communicates how much you love him and want to make him happy and content”
Did I read that right?????? It only takes a second…..the only mystery here is why anyone would listen to this egomaniac!
Hey Ms Off the wall.
Your comments reek of Misandry the old men are bad and women are good. It is ALWAYS THE MAN’S FAULT RIGHT?
John Wilder
How is Misandry relevant here. She didn’t say all men, she said You, i.e., egomaniac. 🙂 So we’re all on the same page, I thought I’d clarify that for you.
I also don’t see how you derived your misleading statement posed as a question, “It is ALWAYS THE MANS FAULT RIGHT?” Because nothing of the kind was referenced at all… again, she was only talking about you and how you think. No one else… So, how is this comment of your relevant to the conversation as a whole, because I’m not seeing it.
God Bless.
M.C.
Misandry (reverse sexism by women against men) is pertinent based upon what she wrote that a woman swallowing is disgusting. Interestingly a woman’s vaginal secretions taste very similar to a man’s semen but if you told a woman her secretions were disgusting it would be world war 3.
Most men love to give their wives oral pleasure and pride themselves on it, the ones who don’t I take on in my blogs and tell them that they need to grow up and stop with the adolescent selfish and self centered sex
John Wilder
I replied to that, because I think it’s an interesting concept. I haven’t read much of the blog, but I’d wondered about other things, like anal sex, for example, and whether or not there was a similar post on a man’s duty to his wife in relation to oral sex and bringing her to orgasm…………
Yes I have a blog post on men giving their women pain free and pleasurable anal sex. Every woman that I have ever introduced to anal sex enjoyed it enough to be willing to do it again with me.
There are secrets to making it pleasurable for her that I detail in my blog post.
John Wilder
Ok Cocky Coach, let me summarize and see if I missed anything…..
Women are supposed to swallow semen.
Vaginal secretions taste like men’s semen.
Men should go down on women.
Women should go down on men.
You are an expert at giving anal sex.
And you cloak all this by invoking the bible? God save me from perverts like this!
Oh I see giving each other oral sex is perversion now?
Nope, never said that. Just don’t like your swarmy way of talking about these things..
Hey Ms Off the Wall
I can agree that I don’t always communicate in the most agreeable terms and can be grating. I wonder if you would concur that one of the big problems that men communicate to me about women is that many women don’t make it safe for women to tell them the truth, if that truth can in any way be construed as negative about them by the woman. The woman tends to get defensive and go on the attack, name calling, yelling and screaming and/or crying with the goal to teaching that “no good man” to never EVER CRITIQUE HER AGAIN! Sadly most guys learn the lesson all too well and “seethe in silence”. What the woman has done is to effectively kill the intimacy between the two of them. If each partner in the couple don’t give each other “safe harbor” to discuss anything and everything then they just use anger to bully the other into silence.
I have written several blog posts on peacefully resolving conflicts without doing damage to each other. This the number one cause of divorce.
Blessings on you and yours
John Wilder
“I wonder if you would concur that one of the big problems that men communicate to me about women is that many women don’t make it safe for women to tell them the truth, if that truth can in any way be construed as negative about them by the woman. The woman tends to get defensive and go on the attack, name calling, yelling and screaming and/or crying with the goal to teaching that “no good man” to never EVER CRITIQUE HER AGAIN!
Well, here’s some of the problem. No one in a relationship should be “critiquing” their partner. Sharing constructive ideas and thoughts- that’s ok. That, to me , is not the same as critiquing. Critiquing finds fault. That’s not going to help a relationship.
The bottom line here is that PEOPLE in general do not know how to effectively communicate with each other. Bullying is prevalent, and not just by children.
The worst bullying I was ever on the receiving end of was in a non-profit organization (international) comprised mostly of volunteers who were all women- and adults. Now, one could argue that this is another example of feminism gone wrong and reaping what it’s sowing. I am not even going to go in to that because while it may be tangibly related, it’s not essential to this discussion. 🙂
PEOPLE do not know how to communicate. I don’t think it’s a matter of making it “safe” for women to be critiqued. I don’t know a single gentleman who likes being smacked down, either. I’ve never known anyone of any gender who appreciates being told “Your ass is too fat to pull of that look, and your gut- wow- really?”
Being married or in a committed relationship is not a license to be rude and dismissive.
Men and women BOTH need to learn how best to communicate to their partners; and they need to set one really basic, pretty simple ground rule that can save a lot of grief: No name calling. Ever.
Obviously, there are additional ground rules for relationships that are really helpful (like no dragging up something that happened 3 years ago).
I disagree that the woman is solely responsible for “killing intimacy.” How did the man respond that resulted in the woman getting defensive?
Hey Tikktok
I would agree with you about rules for relationships which I share in several posts about good conflict resolution skills and how to resolve conflicts peacefully.
Men are more likely to take critique (and I am assuming constructive critique here as opposed to your examples of destructive critique) because of their involvement in team sports and the military.
I am talking about men trying to explain to their wives how for example starving him for sex hurts his feelings and I have heard all too many horror stories where she makes horrendous comments to him and putting him down for his sexuality like: What are you some kind of pervert, is that all you ever think about? It would be like critiquing a woman for having a period.
But even the most non accusatory comments by men towards their women have resulted in the kinds of personal attacks that I have received on here for example. I am not attacking any women on here but I have gotten plenty of it myself. I am used to it. So many women attack first and possibly ask for clarification much later and try to understand another’s viewpoint such as you have and thanks for that BTW.
Blessings on you and yours
John
Oh be still my heart… how on earth have I not met this man, in my vast collection of douchebaggery? Enjoyable anal sex… wow… you have the winning Powerball numbers too, don’t you?
He’s not really a marriage coach, is he?
So Jenni
Are you saying that it is impossible to have pleasurable anal sex for a woman? Just clarifying here?
John Wilder
No. I’m sure that, like with anything, there are women out there that are thrilled to take it in the, ahem…
I’m just not ever going to be that girl. I’ve given the gold offer- “Go ahead, cheat on me and tell her I said thanks” and I think it’s positively nauseating that you can suggest you have the magic answer unless you’re also willing to take it in the ass. What’s good for the goose and all that.
Go on John… tell us how good it feels! lmao….
Jenni, Cocky Coach is not only a MARRIAGE coach, but he has PERSONALLY initiated many women to the joys of anal sex! Now that’s what I call a “hands on” coach!
Hey Off the Wall
I have never had sex with a client, I am talking about former girlfriends and wife.
Jenni
You are certainly entitled to your opinion but according to Kinsey about 42% of the population engage in anal sex and I am talking only here of hetero. And yes, I took a dildo up the ass for a women who had the same suggestion that you did. Once I did and then she did and we did it many more times afterwards. I say don’t knock it til you try it. If you want to know the secret go to my blog and or google and plug in How To Have Pleasurable Anal Sex and Even Climax from It.
John
I thought my proctologist was a great guy….until I finally realized that during my exams his hands were on my shoulders. Would that be the hands off approach?? 😳
wow, talking about tooting your own cock, er, I mean horn!
Hey Tikktok
You did respond on my blog and I responded back. I will respond here as well. I actually have more posts devoted to men doing better for their wives sexually than I do on women. Far too many men are still stuck in that old adolescent sexuality of wam bam thank you maam, roll over an d go to sleep.
I give very detailed and extensive instructions on how to please a woman sexually and give her more foreplay starting with a head to foot massage.
I am not the raging misogynist that I am portrayed on here.
John Wilder
John, I’ll get over there later this afternoon. I hope you’ve shared some links. 🙂
Hahahahahahahaaaaaaaa! Oh my god, you are funny Off the Wall! (oh, I’m sorry, not the content I agree with your thought process, I was talking about the Cocky Coach comment. ) You almost puked on your laptop?
ROFLMAO!!! Oh thaaaaaaank you so much, I can’t breeeeath… LOL 🙂 aaaaagh … agh… whew, that was better’n’sex! I’m going straight to hell now! ROFL!
Well since you have jumped to this blog I will reiterate that the big 3 that couples fight about is money, SEX and kids. I am about both men and women having better relationships and sex lives. I am an equal opportunity watchdog and take on men and their selfishness and lack of care and concern for a woman’s needs as well. You are entitled to your own thoughts as am I. I stand by the bible as the only moral absolute in the world.
John Wilder
Oh this one was to me, I couldn’t tell… I have responded already however how is the bible and this topic relative? You always do that… how are these two things, intermingled in the manner in which you set them forth. And for the record, I’ve been here often, we must have missed one another.
Well the bible has many good things to say about sex and relationships.
You might consider reading my blog post Sex and the Bible Surprising Sex Positive Messages.
I wrote it because so many churches tell little girls that sex is bad, dirty and wrong and that good girls don’t do it. This often negatively impacts a woman’s sexuality for the rest of her life. They never teach the sex positive messages from the bible.
John Wilder
I can agree with this thought process and it can negatively impact a woman’s sexuality. And, to be fair, again… the way you’ve said things links things up at times in a manner that’s insulting and that it’s a woman’s duty to perform after they are married. You said this yesterday on the other blog. No women, or man, should be obligated by their wedding vows to perform or do anything that they are uncomfortable with like, EVER. If the couple is not compatible and discussing it doesn’t work, unfortunately, sometimes they divorce because of it… it happens.
But it’s not only the bible that puts these things, or the church, I’m sorry, into young ladies heads when they’re younger. It comes from many sources.
Now, where in the bible does it discuss specifically sexual intimacy in a relationship. Because I would like to read that. And I”m sure if we trip down all the different religions there are, we’re going to fall over so many different belief systems that it’s not even a little bit funny. All of which can wreak havoc on men and women’s minds. NOT ONLY the women… men too.
I can go open a thread if Precious doesn’t want this conversation here. Let me know please… be happy to do it.
Sex should be given willingly and lovingly. I am not for MAKING anyone do anything. The fighting over sex is usually what a woman won’t do for her man which makes him feel unloved. Sex causses marital break ups and it should not, it is the kids who suffer.
I am not going to go into all the sex positive passages in the bible. I have already suggested that you go read it. here is the link
http://marriagecoach1.wordpress.com/2011/02/09/681/
No, please. Go right ahead. I am enjoying the dialogue. I’m a lawyer, remember? Debate and argument intrigue me…. 🙂
Hey MC
I said on the other blog that yes women are as well as men are obligated by their wedding vows to take care of their partner’s sexual needs. I did not say that they have to give blow jobs, but it would be great if they would willingly give it to their husbands because they want to take care of him and make him happy and vice versa.
John Wilder
You say it all over the place. Are you not hearing the very real point of what I am saying? There need not be any obligatory sex in a relationship.
Sex is not something that is a duty or an obligation.
I’m making this short so you don’t miss it this time.
Hey Mc
Yes you are saying it and I don’t agree with you. The vows of having and holding are a euphemism for sex and if you are married it is part of the contractual obligations sorry.
John
I personally think more people ought to make a point to read Songs (of Solomon)………… 😉
Hey Tikktok
You are so right, but there are more where that came from.
John-
Hey precarious
Far too many women are attracted to the “bad boys” and then bemoan that they continued to be bad boys, just saying.
John
To read more on this way of thinking, check into http://dalrock.wordpress.com. There is tons of stuff there about “the game” and everything alpha and beta and women’s reactions to them. This blog is entirely about feminism, and there is a ton about relationships, and the comments are eye-opening to say the least. {MC has already been there more than once, fwiw}
You know, just because a man is a good man doesn’t mean he is *right* for me. (which of course, I don’t need to worry about, but the statement holds true for any woman) Two good people in a marriage does not = a “good marriage,” either.
Pssst, .. but Tikk… he makes me nauseous. He’s got that undertow thing going on. I mean … eeuuuww…
I know, honey, I know. 🙂 The point here is that there seems to be an increasingly wide deep, deep divide between men and women, and I don’t think it’s healthy for anyone, especially the children. I read all those comments that the men there have written, and while I feel deeply for them (because yes, men really CAN get the shit end of the stick), it makes me wonder what they are telling their children…… what are they saying about the exes to the children?……………. that’s the part that bothers me, because honestly, the quantity of quality children (and it’s not THEIR FAULT BECAUSE THEY ARE CHILDREN) these days is, imo, increasingly dwindling.
Tikk, I think it’s one of the ways that men and women let themselves off the hook, so to speak… if we say that “all men” are such-and-such or “all women” are this-n-that, then we don’t need to try to understand each other or meet each other’s needs, right? And we definitely don’t need to work on ourselves because there’s no point.
And it is definitely sad to think about what we conveying to our children… I wonder what expectations we are giving them, what image of a healthy relationship we are creating. I know so many women who married “good guys” that they didn’t feel much for because their mothers told them that sex wasn’t important and didn’t last and they should marry their best friends. 😦 I love the idea of marrying one’s best friend, but not without all of the other aspects of healthy intimacy. I already talk to my girls about knowing the difference between men I want to be just friends with and men I want to create a life with. I don’t want my girls in “partnership” marriages…. I want them in loving, fulfilled marriages. It will absolutely break my heart if they ever look at me and tell me that they feel emotionally empty in their marriage. Ugh! 😦
My mom pushed back really hard against my divorce, initially. It wasn’t until I broke down and told her what it really felt like to me that she started crying and said, “Then you must go. And I will do anything and everything to help you. I cannot see my baby sad and depressed and empty forever. You have too much love to give and you deserve to get it in return.” She taught me a lesson that day, in so many ways….
Hey Tikktok
Your points are well taken. Now I take my life in my hands here about comments made about ex spouses to the children. It is hideous because the kid loves both parents.
What you are referring to is called PARENTAL ALIENATION SYNDROME. It is overwhelmingly done by women to teach their kids that dad is bad and wrong and evil. If you doubt this simply google the subject and read all the listings. It is a version of the Stockholm Syndrome where a captive starts to relate more to their captor than to their own family and is an insidious form of brainwashing.
I was certified to teach CEU training to judges, attorney’s gaurdians at litem as well as social workers and psychologists in the State of Minnesota.
Now I know that all you ladies will be after my throat and other critical portions of my anatomy because I dared to accuse women here, but it is simply facts.
John Wilder
Oh ya, John, I am well familiar with PAS; I just don’t think it’s just the mothers doing it. Do you have reputable data that shows the demographic of this being perpetrated “overwhelmingly” by women? (and I would wonder how the data collection was done- is this the kind of thing women admit to doing?)
Well there are a lot of books on it. Check Amazon. It is so insidious that The American Psychological Assn did their own book on it. Women don’t admit to doing it because they are so irrational and can’t be reached with traditional counseling techniques. The Book by the APA demonstrated that the only effective way to reverse PAS is to reverse custody and it magically went away in a matter of weeks. I speak from personal experience as well as professional experience.
Yes there are men that do it but as I said, it is overwhelmingly women doing it out of revenge towards their ex husbands.
The Family Court is called the “house of Pain” by lawyers practicing there because it is so overwhelmingly sexist towards men. The modus operandi is men bad women good.
John Wilder
Okay, now I’m going to take issue. There is plenty of propaganda out there by fathers’ rights groups, and that is not scientific research; it’s propaganda. If google is your basis for your research bias, John, then you’re really in trouble here…
I worked in family law for years and I never heard an attorney I respected call it the House of Pain, as you suggest. Sometimes men get a raw deal; sometimes they reap what they sow; and sometimes they’re just as bitter and resentful as the women you accuse and so no equitable outcome is going to make them happy. The same is true for some women.
I don’t mind an interesting and vibrant dialogue on my blog, but if we’re moving into the legal realm, you’d better come better armed than you are, because I won’t sit quietly by while you share half-baked truths about a profession and an area of the law about which I know far more than you do.
Sorry, but here’s where it’s my blog and I get to set the rules. 🙂
Hey Precarious
I can’t speak to the rest of the country, only to the State of Minnesota where it took place and yes that was the common moniker. In part it had to do with gaurdians at litem that had ABSOLUTE IMMUNITY they could not be fired or sued or in any way held accountable. They routinely filed false affidavits with the courts.
They would override doctoral level psychologists recommendations. Most of these were women going before women judges. I absolutely stand by my statements in RE the state of Minnesota. If you have legal pals up there check it for yourself.
You might also do some reading and research on PAS.
John Wilder
It was so bad that a local tv station did a investigative report on it. Men who did not pay child support were thrown in jail, or had their driver’s licenses suspended but women who did not give visitation were allowed to get away with it even though it was grounds for custody reversal in the state. Their switchboards were flooded with hundreds of call from men who had gotten the shaft there. Perhaps it is better in your state but in Minnesota that bastion of ultra liberal politics, men got the shaft on a very routine basis.
John Wilder
I actually don’t have time to google and track down and then read books to stay in this conversation, lol. 😆
As TPG said- blogs don’t count unless they link to reputable, peer-reviewed data. THAT’S my definition of “credible” (much in the same way a formula manufacturer who pays for a study which then comes back with “data” that says “formula is just as good as human milk” is going to be subject because of where the money funding the study came from- it has to not only be completely objective, but also peer reviewed. )
In this case, longitudinal studies need to have taken place and been peer-reviewed (and preferably duplicated, because “facts” don’t lie and can be duplicated) before we can definitely say it’s not a trend or “junk science” hasn’t been on a rampage.
Wrt custody, I have personally seen numerous cases where the father has become the custodial parent, even in cases where he was the one who cheated and irreparably harmed the marriage.
And now I really am going to go eat, now that every one else has gotten their food…. 😀
You know… damn it, I made a post earlier and I think wordpress ate it. (crap) Oh… okay, yes I agree with what you’re saying about the increasing divide. I have male friends who would be the best choice for the sole custody parent with the mother getting visitation only and sadly, the fight to do that against the mother’s are very difficult in court. Some men do win these battles though, but it’s a long and tiresome process. Yes, I know guys can get the shit end of the stick I agree with you there as well.
I know… my one friends son? He’s going to be a mess… my friend is the player guy I’ve referenced in my blog from time to time but he is an excellent father with that boy. His mother? oh man… if it was legal for me to slap her silly, I would have done it already. I hear you…
Yah, I feel nauseous when I read there… it’s like bile comes up to my nose.
I’m very familiar with parental alienation syndrome and the horrible effects of it. What I take issue with is your blanket statement that it is a female thing. Plenty of men play the same games, John.
As usual, Tikk, you say, in your second paragraph and with an economy of words, what I intended to convey. 🙂
🙂 I think it’s really easy to lump groups of people in together based on physical similarities and paint “them” with a broad brush. And that, I think, is really, really wrong.
Yes, you can collect data and come up with conclusions. This one, though (the bit about letting a good one go making you crazy because he would have been “perfect” for you), I think is off base.
I absolutely do not think you can label the “caliber” or quality of a person based on the success or failure of romantic relationships. Relationships are entirely too complicated and of course, involve more than just a single person. And, since people aren’t static, they really can grow apart. Obviously, I could rant a good long while about this topic. 😆 But I’ll spare us all today. 😉
Hey John, You’re original statement which started this ruckus, was as follows:
“Yes I will call you crazy. All you women bemoan and say where are all the good men out there. You had one and are going to throw him back. Yup, crazy.
John”
Your follow up statement above here THEN talks about bad boys and how women say there are no good men out there. NOW again, you make blanket statements and rip things out of context in a negative fashion.
Do you think, perhaps, had you worded this differently, you would been able to communicate much more eloquently on this topic, than you have? You lump women together like cattle, your comments are abrasive and unclear, not to mention they come across as degrading.
No. No. Don’t go there. Stand on your own merits, I don’t care about your followers, or who agrees with you, there’s an ass for every saddle. You stand by what you preach (lol, preach, that’s funny) and be more precise, perhaps in these matters, it would behoove you to learn some delicacy in how you word things. Anyone strong in their beliefs can express them in a manner that doesn’t come across like a snake spitting venom at all women and in a manner that is insulting.
M.C.
Hey Mysterycoach
Let me apologize for having caused offense. None was intended believe it or not. I was reacting to so many good guys bemoaning their lack of a relationship because so many women go after the proverbial bad boys to clarify my intent.
Yes I understand that attraction is a mysterious thing and the heart can be unstable.
I deal with so much agony and frustration but the reason that I do it is because of the devastation caused by marital break ups on kids.
So sometimes I speak too forthrightly and it gets me into trouble, but believe it or not I am a good guy and have the best interests of women at heart. If you would take the time to delve further into my blog posts you will read many blogs where I take on men for being selfish and self centered when it comes to their women and have told them that I don’t blame women for not wanting to have sex with them. I then go on to tell them how to do it better and make sex as enjoyable for their women as themselves. It is the incredible bonding agent between two people when done’ properly.
I was also reacting to so many men’s complaints about how they feel unworthy and unloved because their women refuse to go down on them in spite of men going down on women.
Blessings on you and yours
John Wilder
John, I understand “now” what you are saying and how you may have intended it.
Forthright is one thing, how you express certain things, is highly offensive to women and some men for that matter.
As for sex between men and women, that’s between the couple themselves and their personal preferences and not all people are compatible in this vein either. I agree, it’s a beautiful thing, sex, intimacy and sexual intimacy with one another. Unfortunately, the manner in which you express this … like the one paragraph pulled out of your blog “it only takes a minute to swallow” or something like that is says above here, I mean… the manner in which you say that? It comes across uncleanly, so to speak. I can’t even think of the word right now to describe how it sounds when you say it that way.
Yah but … you know, if men have an issue with women not going down on them, there has to be a reason for that. KDaddy had a full conversation about this on his blog some months back about having this discussion with a woman. He nailed it… I mean he couldn’t have been more right and honestly, what woman, would like to feel obligated to perform oral sex?
What man would like to feel obligated (some men do not do that, rare, but true) to perform oral sex on a woman?
I’m not sure how oral sex and feeling unworthy or unloved are combined here. I mean if Precious is okay with continuing this discussion here, it’s okay or I can open this topic up on my blog.
One would think that, intimacy in a relationship is something that needs to be talked about … there is a reason for everything that goes on or does not go on in a relationship. Yet, even here… you’re saying how the man is deprived and … perhaps this is true. But. Why?
What happened? Women don’t simply turn around and stop doing something they were already doing, there’s a reason behind it.
I don’t know John, I do know that the manner in which you come across with your thoughts can be, and have been at times, highly offensive. Perhaps that’s not your intent but when you see the reaction you get from some, perhaps it’s not just them… it could be something you’re doing. Albeit, we are not going to get along with everyone in life, we all have differences.
M.C.
Yes the written word is so easily misinterpreted and I don’t always adequately explain where I am coming from. But I am willing to jump in and help couples. I offer an unheard of in the industry money back guarantee. (I think that all therapists should do so but you won’t find any that do). For the record I have never had to give anyone their money back. I charge $100 per hour but have often offered heavily discounted rates and have done it pro bono as well. It is the kids that I am trying to save. Sadly insurance won’t pay for coaching and traditional marriage counselors are such abject failures. Do your own poll of your friends who have been to a marriage counselor and hear the horror stories for yourself.
John Wilder
Could it be that you’re just not ready? That your heart won’t allow you to feel that spark, even if it’s there?
That’s a good and valid question, RM… but as I explained to Mysterycoach above, this isn’t about James. That would be an understandable conclusion to draw, but I don’t feel like that’s it. When we first started talking, I was definitely still sore and aching from my James’ bruising, but I think that also made me really vulnerable. I think it might have worked in his favor….
When I first started dating James, I was still reeling from my break-up with K.C. I knew it was over, but the bruises weren’t completely faded away yet. But something about James captured me enough to hold my interest and make me want to try a little bit. The same was true when I met Parker… my relationship with my college boyfriend was taking its last dying gasps, but I just couldn’t completely let go. Then Parker literally walked into my life and I never looked back. So, while I totally understand and respect your point, I think that this thing with Mr. Airplane would have failed even if I’d met him 6 months from now.
Nope, not crazy. I think what’s rare about true love is 1) recognizing it for what it really is and 2) taking hold of it and not letting life and other stuff get in the way of keeping it….. Those two things, I think are harder to do than finding it.
I think you’re very right, Tikk. That’s part of what I mean about being ready… Parker and I had all the great ingredients at such a young age, but we weren’t ready and we failed your two-pronged test pretty quickly.
It’s like the post I wrote about real love being messy… you’ve got to see it for what it’s worth and fight to protect it and nurture it and value it. I’ve found it a couple of times, but never managed to keep it. Maybe someday…. 🙂
Pssst… this is not an ad for my blog… It’s my response to this comment you have here. (HI TIKK!)
http://mysterycoachdsi.wordpress.com/unanswered-prayers/
Replied. 🙂
All blog ads are welcome here. 🙂 So don’t apologize. Sometimes it makes more sense to attach a link than to essentially re-write a whole post you’ve already posted! 🙂
And your friend and her guy (the one you no longer despise ;)) are proof positive that it CAN work the second time around. That one would make a great movie! 🙂
Hey Precarious
Here is a link that explains that it is 75% female which backs my earlier
http://www.parental-alienation.info/publications/05-paralisynwhathelegproshokno.htm
statement that it is overwhelmingly a woman issue. Now you can rightly say yea but 25% of guys do it too, but that does not negate my statement. I think that you are speaking for your sex and equal rights and not willing to admit that there are some things that women are more guilty of.
John Wilder
Seriously, John? An internet link to a “journal” that is the work of entirely one author and isn’t peer-reviewed? Please don’t insult my intelligence… this is merely an example that one can find support on the internet for any concept or position.
And why are you so invested in trying to “convince” me? Why do you really care whether I agree with you or not? I find your need to be right a little bit fascinating in a perverse kind of way….
Hey Precarious
You can’t have it both ways, you challenge me and call me a liar and I am not supposed to respond, Really? I cited just one, there are many other sources documenting that it is predominantly women who do this. This is so obvious because in most cases women get primary custody of the kids.
You can go to the book published by the APA, you can do your own research. You can go to peer reviewed psych journals. There are just some things that women are more guilty of than are men and I think that it is your big issue with me, your feminist qualities.
John
I am absolutely fine with acknowledging those “feminist qualities,” even though I suspect that they mean different things to you and me, and I’ve always believed that labels are a passive-aggressive form of name-calling. I can accept any name you want to call me, because you don’t know me at all and your opinion of me is not relevant to me or my life. It’s merely a reflection of your own issues.
Hey precarious:
Okay, now I am pissed, I DEFY you to show me one source that says that it is equally done by men. Every piece of research that I have read says that it is overwhelmingly women do this. Show me just one resource that consider credible that says that it is an equal sin on the part of men.
John
Lol. I’m not particularly concerned with whether you’re angry, John. That was exactly my point. I don’t much care whether you agree with me or not, and don’t understand your own need to convince me. You started this debate, not me, and the last thing I’m going to do is waste my precious time trying to convince you of anything. Sorry, no dice.
Hey MC
Yes you are saying it but I disagree with it. To have and to hold is a vow that is a euphemism for sex unless you write your own vows and have prior permission to withhold sex any time that you feel like it, then yes it is an obligation.
I Corinthians 7 says that when you are married that your body is not your own and it is equal rights both the man and the woman are required to give their partner sex. Perhaps you missed that the current blog post on my blog is by a guest poster woman explaining to women how to get more sex in a sexless marriage. I take on men for not giving their wives sex when they want it as well. This is especially true of older men and whose wives have a higher libido than the men. Men still have to get their wives off according to the bible as well.
John Wilder
And this is where the entire conversation goes right down the shitter.
“not your own” “required” “not giving their wives sex when they want it” “men still have to get their wives off according to the BIBLE” You tread a slippery slope on these topics. You speak in a manner, to women, that is highly disrespectful.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/1-corinthians/passage.aspx?q=1-corinthians+7:3-5
“3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife’s body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband’s body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. ”
You know … this passage is a bit skewed to me. (No disrespect to religion in any way) I don’t think they were considering children, work, stress, etc., in relationships when they wrote this did they? I understand the concept but it’s not realistic.
If you were not here in this blog, I would not read your blog. I do not find you to be enlightening in any way shape or form. Yes, I know… straight to hell I go, it’s okay.
Hey MC
You choose to ignore the bible which is your right. I choose to apply it to my life which is my right. Saying no to your partners wishes and needs is such an ugly word whether you are a man or a woman. If they did not need it or want it they would not have asked. I have no more patience with men turning women down for sex than I do for women turning men down.
John
That by the way is how I define “happily ever after” that both partners take care of each other’s needs, oh what an asshole am I huh?
John
Well, that’s a relief. I’m glad you said it before Jenni had to. Because, I’m sorry to have to agree with you, John, but, yes, you’re being an asshole.
I wonder what would happen if blanket statements which make the ENTIRE opposite sex out to be heathens would improve this conversation.
Right now, we’re all arguing a point of view. Many of these points of views may have validity to them, however are too broadly presented and there is no separate and divide going on here.
John, you need to stay on one topic at a time versus shifting the conversation from one topic to the other so that you can be right. That’s poor communication.
You also have to understand that women AND men, when presented material on any topic are going to present their side. You, however, when you speak/write on a consistent basis, much like in the other blog you and I had words yesterday on, instantaneously SLAM women. And I do mean slam… this is unacceptable behavior. It shows a massive lack of respect … you only reference men as a bandaid over how you seem to feel about women over all. You come across as viewing women as beneath you. I’ve seen you talk about sex with your last girlfriend on KDaddy’s blog and it was not said in a manner that was remotely loving. It was more pornographic and vulgar. Which leads me to believe that you don’t respect women at all…
This is my problem with you. You quote the bible, you use it to support your personal views and manipulate situations that could be healthy into someone doing what you want or they are not PLEASING or doing their duty.
At what juncture, should love making be a duty or obligation? Don’t you dare quote the bible to me. At what point, do you have the right to put women down in this way? Do some women with hold sex? I’m sure they do… so if a husband and wife have an argument and she’s not in the mood, she’s not doing her duty. Regardless of her feelings or if she feels close to him. Seriously, surely resolution is the most important thing in order to maintain and enhance emotional intimacy which surely enhances sexual intimacy.
You’re not logical in your approach and this strict adherence to something that is supposed to be shared in a healthy, fun, loving, whatever two people are into manner is smeared by the way you reference things. There is no middle ground with you, there is no meeting of the minds or communication in the very real sense of coming together on an issue such as this with you. You keep diverting the conversation so you can win, so you can be right…and sir? You are not right… You are not right because you’re presentation is an insult to not only myself, but other women as well. It’s repulsive.
I am not diverting the conversation but simply responding to personal attacks as they come up. Of course when couples have an argument neither party is wanting sex. That is why I teach good conflict resolution skills so that they don”t fight but respectively talk out their differences. I don’t see women beneath me. I have a problem with some women who are blatantly sexist towards men and you know that they do. I have a problem with women seeing themselves as superior to men like Maureen Dowd running a serious column in the NY Slimes about the only reason for the necessity in today’s society is to be a sperm donor.
John Wilder
Gosh what an entertaining collection of comments!
Phew I’m so glad the coach I found was a little more – how shall I put this – a coach!!!!
BTW – Good luck with your next man!!! If he’s not for you then he’s not for you!!
Have fun
Precarious, I totally understand. I was there myself 20+ years ago. I dated the fellow for 6 months. He was witty, an excellent father, intelligent, nice looking, made good money and wined and dined me. When I made dinner for him he brought wine, liquor, and flowers every time and I was trying to “pay back” the lovely dinners he always bought for me. He called regularly and I always had plenty of notice for dates. He wasn’t clingy but attentive. He tolerated my silliness and made it very obvious he really cared for me and would like to get physical but he never pushed it. For 6 months I could not get past a kiss. It just wasn’t there, so as with you I knew I had to cut him loose.
An interesting thing happened about a year later:
I dated a few jerks and thought, maybe I could learn to be attracted to him, maybe if we just did it there would be some spark, he was perfect in every other way I decided to give it another try. We ran into each other and went on a couple of dates and then we did it. It was awful but I was determined to somehow get past this. Well you know what? When he thought I was really interested the guy turned into a jerk, didn’t call if he was late, didn’t make plans ahead, wasn’t as generous (not that it is a priority for me it was just such a drastic change from the way he had been when I wasn’t that interested) and basically he turned into a cocky sob.
So you never know for sure. But it does seem like a cruel joke to meet a man like that and not feel the slightest spark.
That’s interesting, Carrie…. when I hear stories like that, I always wonder how much chemistry is related to intuition about the person. Because, to be honest, the times that I’ve dated someone who was truly not good for me, I was not initially attracted to that person and had to really wait for it to show up…
Anyway, Mr. Airplane is a great guy, but he’s definitely not the great guy for me. I send him back into the dating pool with the best of luck! 🙂
You made an interesting point Precarious. With my ex (who was very abusive) although I found him very attractive when I met him I felt he was more into me than I waa into him. But he was so good to me I talked myself into letting a man care more than me and let a man spoil me for a change. Biggest mistake I ever made! It probably was my guts telling me something.
I had a similar experience with an abusive boyfriend. I had a beer-goggle attraction the night I met him, but wasn’t attracted at all once I sobered up, despite the fact that he was literally a model. Something just didn’t work for me. He wooed and won me and I fell into it and stayed way longer than I should have. Makes you wonder, doesn’t it?
The purest love I ever had was also the most instantaneous. Coincidence?
🙂